getitorfyerchest.myfreeforum.org

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

copied from Pigeon Watch which has locked the thread yet again!

QUOTE (partridge60 @ Sep 3 2009, 06:13 AM)
I doubt that NOBS actually even has 9,500 paid up members anyway but of more concern is the fact that a NOBS Regional Officer has stated that the third party liability cover is for SPORT only, so any beater or picker up getting paid - and even a brace of birds, a drink or a lunch constitutes a legal payment - is not covered.
See another thread re insurance

Just had an email back from Ian at SACS's to clear this bit up;

Also quoted on another thread,

QUOTE
I think I see what is causing the confusion here, and I'll try to set it out more clearly.

Firstly, as a SACS member, if you are taking part in ANY Countrysports activity, you as an individual are fully covered, and the cover includes anything that happens and for which you could be sued, including beating, picking up, etc. for the usual 'payment' that such jobs normally receive.

Our insurers have specifically confirmed this in the past, and one of the 'professional' loaders spoke direct to the NFU recently, at my suggestion, and that was again confirmed to him by the NFU.

Secondly, if you are a Gun on a shoot, the SACS insurance also covers you against a claim made against you BY a beater or picker-up who is working for the shoot.

I think maybe this is where the confusion has come from - both eventualities are covered, though, and there is nothing to worry about.

I think I would prefer to rely on my barrister friends interpretation unless that confirmation from the NFU is given in writing.
True to say that the NFU is not one of the "stickier" insurers but when eventually a claim is made under the policy then it could be interesting.

_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

This post appeared on the Pigeon Watch Forum:

If fellow guns will allow me to make a few points clear from my perspective as the former "Development Officer" for "THE SCOTTISH ASSOCIATON FOR COUNTRYSPORTS" (SACS) I have major concerns that NOBS as an organisation and its members are being misled in relation to the insurance cover!! and that its members may be put at risk??

The insurance cover is for sporting purposes only!! If an individual is picking up, beating and receives finanancial reward or any other renumeration, thats a commercial enterprise and the insurance is void, full stop!
Part of my remit as the former Development Officer with SACS was promotion and recruitment and explaining the benefits and pitfalls of the insurance cover to potential members
My understanding is that Ian Clark may have recruited NOBS as members simply to boost numbers for the benefit of the management committee and to keep secure his own posistion as Director? without discussing the full implications of the insurance cover?. I am fully aware that membership has been affected since I left?, many clubs and single members simply have not renewed!! I am personally still getting at least between 15/20 enquiries a month re: membership to SAC's I normally direct these potential members elsewhere!!

Another point re: NOBS relationship with SACS should also be of some concern to Nobs members? NOBS is a UK nation wide organisation!! SACS was formed and exists to protect and preserve fieldsports Scotland and Northern Ireland only!!, It cannot lobby, protect promote or secure any fieldsport in England or Wales and that includes shooting!! this is all outside of SACS remit
Monies raised through SACS membership is used in Scotland and Northern Ireland, "it is not for the benefit of England and Wales!! I wonder if thes points were made clear to NOBS members??

Tom

Ps: This post is not written with any malice in mind!! its fact based on my experience and knowledge as the former Development Officer of SACS and what still appears on the SACS website and mission statement to this very day!!

Below is some extracts from the SACS website:

http://www.sacs.org.uk/Sacs/Mission%20Statement.htm

WELCOME to the SACS WEBSITE

We exist to promote and protect the future of country sports in Scotland and Northern Ireland, the environment on which they depend, and the interests of those people who are involved or employed in managing, conserving, and enjoying Scotland's and Northern Ireland's unique sporting heritage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sacs.org.uk/

Background

The Association was formed in 1994, in response to a growing belief by country sportsmen in Scotland that their best interests were not being served by existing countryside organisations, which were based in England.

Scotland, with its different countryside, separate legal system and cultural differences from the rest of the UK did not fit conveniently into the "English" pattern.

It was felt strongly that Scottish members of these organisations were being treated unfairly by comparison with the English members, who formed the greater part of the membership of these organisations.

SACS is based in Scotland, run by people living in Scotland for people living or taking part in country sports here. It is not restricted to shooting sports – we represent all who use the country for sport, whether you hunt, shoot, fish, fly hawks, work terriers – the list is endless.

This post has been edited by Foxgun Tom: Today, 02:28 PM

--------------------

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here;
My heart's in the Highlands a-chasing the deer;
A-chasing the wild-deer, and following the roe,
My heart's in the Highlands wherever I go.

That makes things clear then!!!
DESPITE WHAT HAS BEEN CLAIMED THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY ARRANGED THE INSURANCE COVER SAYS THAT BEATER AND PICKERS UP AINT COVERED IF THEY GET ANY FORM OF PAYMENT!!
_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23

brown owl · Joined: 07 Sep 2009 Posts: 7

Admin,
Why did you edit that statement before posting it on here?

brown owl · Joined: 07 Sep 2009 Posts: 7

in fairness, my 'accusation' may be incorrect, i can see the original post on pigeon watch was edited after it was reproduced on here.

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

when I copy things I dont edit - period!
_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

Here is the amended post which rather compounds any concerns regarding the cover!!!!

If fellow guns will allow me to make a few points clear from my perspective as the former "Development Officer" for "THE SCOTTISH ASSOCIATON FOR COUNTRYSPORTS" (SACS) I have major concerns that NOBS as an organisation and its members may be misled in relation to the insurance cover!! and that its members may be put at risk?? This alliance is more beneficial to SACS than NOBS? If NOBS membership numbers are to be believed? NOBS have a far larger membership than SACS? A member of SACS contacted office admin last year enquiring about total no: of membership she was informed the total was over 4,000 plus! The office admin was rebuked for this and next time told to say "We have had over 10,000 members, I was also told to say the same to potential advertisers seeking adverts in the magazine, if they asked the same question!!

The insurance cover is for sporting purposes only!! If an individual is picking up, beating and receives finanancial reward or any other renumeration, thats a commercial enterprise, in my opinion!! as I was always told that by Ian Clark!!!! for over five years, while involved in recruitment and that the insurance would be void, full stop!

Ian Clark also say's "I try to explain things clearly, in plain english - if anyone needs clarification of anything I say, I am always happy to do that - it just means that my english wasn't plain enough, not that there is anything being concealed or twisted."

I have asked him to clarify a number of things whilst Development Officer and since leaving!! and so have members? the result was we were all ignored!! Its, the strategy of the Director to bluff and ignore when a difficult question is put!! especially one he does'nt want to or can't answer He's done to members while I've been there and he's recently done it to me!!

As this is an issue about the integrity of the insurance!! and that was one of the reasons I left the association, eg: unqualified coaches on clay stands teaching members of the public?. What would the insurers reaction be if a member of the public was injured while being taught by an unqualified coach?? There were unqualified coaches on the SACS try gun stand at the Dumfries and Galloway show this year again??, despite me voicing concerns last year!! One of whom was a young lad who lost an eye in a shooting accident a couple of years ago and he was teaching a child despite having no qualification to do so??, there was also no police disclosure checks to allay fears that these coaches were fit and proper persons to inter-act with children? That was another concern I raised!! Are police disclosure checks an element of the insurance?

Part of my remit as the former Development Officer with SACS was promotion and recruitment and explaining the benefits and pitfalls of the insurance cover to potential members

My understanding is that Ian Clark may have recruited NOBS as members simply to boost numbers for the benefit of the management committee and to keep secure his own posistion as Director? without discussing the full implications of the insurance cover?. I am fully aware that membership has been affected since I left?, many clubs and single members simply have not renewed!! I am personally still getting at least between 15/20 enquiries a month re: membership to SAC's I normally direct these potential members elsewhere!!

Another point re: NOBS relationship with SACS should also be of some concern to Nobs members? NOBS is a UK nation wide organisation!! SACS was formed and exists to protect and preserve fieldsports Scotland and Northern Ireland only!!, It cannot lobby, protect promote or secure any fieldsport in England or Wales and that includes shooting!! this is all outside of SACS remit
Monies raised through SACS membership is used in Scotland and Northern Ireland, "it is not for the benefit of England and Wales!! I wonder if thes points were made clear to NOBS members?? The only benefit to members south of the border is cheap insurance they do not share the other benefits secured if your a member in Scotland and Northern Ireland, my posistion on that matter is that its always been unfair and should have been change a long time ago!!!!!!!!

Tom

Ps: This post is not written with any malice in mind!! its fact based on my experience and knowledge as the former Development Officer of SACS and what still appears on the SACS website and mission statement to this very day!!

Below is some extracts from the SACS website:

http://www.sacs.org.uk/Sacs/Mission%20Statement.htm

WELCOME to the SACS WEBSITE

We exist to promote and protect the future of country sports in Scotland and Northern Ireland, the environment on which they depend, and the interests of those people who are involved or employed in managing, conserving, and enjoying Scotland's and Northern Ireland's unique sporting heritage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sacs.org.uk/

Background

The Association was formed in 1994, in response to a growing belief by country sportsmen in Scotland that their best interests were not being served by existing countryside organisations, which were based in England.

Scotland, with its different countryside, separate legal system and cultural differences from the rest of the UK did not fit conveniently into the "English" pattern.

It was felt strongly that Scottish members of these organisations were being treated unfairly by comparison with the English members, who formed the greater part of the membership of these organisations.

SACS is based in Scotland, run by people living in Scotland for people living or taking part in country sports here. It is not restricted to shooting sports – we represent all who use the country for sport, whether you hunt, shoot, fish, fly hawks, work terriers – the list is endless.

This post has been edited by Foxgun Tom: Today, 05:22 PM
_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

Seems that NOBS and SACS are nicely suited - both claim an enhanced membership!!!
In NOBS case their accounts SHOW that their membership figures of 9,500 are nonsense - their income from all sources in 2008 was 28,408 but included 5,994 of sponsorship monies so their income, including fees and merchandise sales was 22,414.
They spent 6,037 on NOBS Regalia which I presume was actually rstocking merchandise and not GOLD CHAINS etc for the management and regional officers!!
Allowing a mark up of 30% then merchandise accounts for nearly 8,000
of income so membership and donations amount to a total of 14,500 in round figures.
Lets say that shoots make up a third of the membership, and they pay double fees that gives 480 shoot membership, then the balance is made up of about 1950 ordinary members paying £5.
Total PAID UP membership is 1950 + 480 = 2430

Whose got the worst deal NOBS or SACS!!!!

Well suited perhaps and STILL NOBS falsely claims to be the ONLY organisation enabling contact between shoots and people.

Shooting4All, Shootpics and PuBS all do the same but they are FREE
_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23

brown owl · Joined: 07 Sep 2009 Posts: 7

Stoatly Different · Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject:

It all looks very wooly to me.

The management of the two grouos involved should get along well from the sound of it.
_________________
What do you call an animal thats does not run away from or fight with its enemies???

Lunch!!

admin · Site Admin Joined: 25 Sep 2008 Posts: 427

Brown Owl
As I have stated elsewhere I have a friend who was a barrister specialising in compensation, employment law and insurance cases, now a recorder -I have invited him on several days shooting i had bought.
His opinion is that of Foxgun Tom - any payment makes the cover void.
Counsels opinion does not come cheap!!!
Yes I do have a beef with NOBS, they treat people like rubbish, take their money, promise to find them beating then fail.
They overstate their paid up membership by thousands, make false claims as to being the ONLY organisation linking shoots and people.
The fact that NOBS is a limited company is not made plain to their customers who actually pay fees but have no say in how the organisation is run or how the Board of Directors is composed and who is elected to it.
No accounts are published for the customers to read - maybe because their claims for paid up membership would then be shown as false.
No wonder that so many have not rejoined and their membership has lapsed- but apparently is still counted.
NOBS members have used bully boy tactics on other forums and organisations in the same arena.
Many promises have been made regarding a book of recipes, they published a rehash f a book on Picking up, when numerically one on beating would have a wider custome appeal, and that book had several inaccuracies and a breach of copyright, as well as depicting an llegal means of transport for beaters. It was sold by NOBS for £16.95 + P&P - I bought my copy from Amazon at half that price, which amazed me as it was a newly published book and to be discounted so heavily apparently would indicate the publisher dumped all his stocks sharpish. A book on recipes woud appeal to a much wider section, notjust shooting sports people, so be more commercially successful.
NOBS membership is necessary to post on their Forum, which also claims many thousands of members, but active posters are very few and usually the same small bunch of people - so that was a wonderful move wasnt it?
Some one presumably donated a beaters trailer, which they are raffling - how many beaters would want to win that prize?
Bet its on fleabay in no time!
Sometime soon the true state of NOBS will come to be known to the shooting media.
The concept was fantastic but has been diminished by poor person skills, bad administrative decisions and lack of business acumen.

_________________
NickCordery
Administrative Big Noise of Getitorfyerchest
Grand Panjandrum aka Chief Executive Officer
Moderator in Chief
Regional Officer
Local Representative, County Representative
Im still awaiting my knighthood and peerage so cant put those in ere
Prat First Class, level 23